Parental Group Discussion on vaccines

We had a gathering of possibly a total of 16-17 parents spread across the duration of the session. Some people left early and some came left, so we had at least 10+ people present throughout.


The session started off with Chiddu, Parent_D , Farhan, Babu and Nidhi in attendance.


I started by showing a video of Dr Lawrence Palevsky, a paediatrician from Maryland who discussed in a lecture how vaccines have been given undue credit for disease eradication in the 20th century


ParentV : I came to find out whether I need to vaccinate my child with this new MR vaccine. My daughter is 10 month old and according to the current guidelines, she has to be vaccinated in this drive.

Me : Please take a quick look at this video. This video is from a paediatrician in Maryland. He explains that we can’t attribute the reduction in mortality rates in the 20th century to vaccines alone.

Parent_D : When the vaccine is known to be risky, should I not be told about the risks. If the vaccine is harmful to one in 1000 or one in 10000, I , as the parent should be deciding whether or not it is acceptable. You might be saying that the vaccine is risky for one in 10000. But my child could be that one. And my elder child was injured from vaccines. That is why chose not to vaccinate my little one. The litte one has not been vaccinated at all (She had brought her little one to this discussion)

Me : Dear ParentV , you had mentioned that you have a 10 month old at home, and you wish to leave early so as to be back with her. You have not got here , I presume because you don’t want to expose her to so many people in an alien environment

ParentV : Well we have given her everything that the Doctor asked for. We have got the vaccination card with us. (And it showed a lot of vaccines)

Chiddu : Well I’d like to point out one thing. Here you can see  Parent_D’s 10 month old, she is roaming around this room making herself familiar with the surroundings , doing things 10 year olds do like licking their fingers after touching every available surface and people’s skins. She’s able to do this because she is completely vaccine free. She has a robust immune system. You are not comfortable getting your kid around because you are worried that she might fall sick. I wish to add that this is what I have seen even in my circle of family and friends. The parents of the unvaccinated children rarely worry about their children falling constantly sick. Whereas the parents of the vaccinated would constantly worry about their children falling sick. Initially I used to think that my fellow parents were overreacting. When my friends had very small kids they would not be comfortable going to another clime, and would be worried about extreme weather, concerns which parents of unvaccinated children did not share. Over time I realized that they were not exaggerating, or over reacting, their kids did fall sick very frequently. And it would be clear that the main difference between the two groups of parents were the vaccination status of their children. The parents of the unvaccinated children were typically more confident of the ability of their children in handling different environments and easily adapting to them.

Parent_M : I have three children and so far I have been studiously following our Doctor’s advise regarding vaccines. The idea that vaccines could have negative effects were not something I was exposed to earlier. One time, the Doctor suggested that my kid get the flu vaccine, and since we were used to simply accepting the Doctors recommendations , we gave him the flu vaccine. However he did come down with the flu shortly thereafter. When I did bring this up with the Doctor , he would say that because of the vaccination, my son was having a mild version of the flu and if he had not vaccinated, it would have been worse. Now piecing it back together it is obvious that it was not a mild case. And looking back it definitely was not a mild case. The Doctor kept telling us that our child had a weak immune system. I guess, like most parents, we took the Doctors word for granted and felt no reason to question his opinion.
Parent_G : My son was on antibiotics for 6 months. And over time we have changed our diets. I use only organic food at home, and buy only A2 milk. After that his issues have stopped. Working with parents of special children , it is obvious to me that vaccines are one of the major causes of developmental disabilities. I also need to stress that Doctors don’t intentionally mislead you. Their knowledge is limited .
My son was prescribed some supplements , and he started passing green stools for a while. When I mentioned this to the Doctor he talked about a serious condition [Check] , and I was in panic mode. I changed Doctors to get a second opinion, and this Doc asked us to stop the supplements. And then we realized that his stools were a symptom of Iron poisoning. We were giving him too much iron through supplements.

Chiddu: I agree that Doctors do not intentionally mislead you. However they don’t really admit to their lack of awareness and try to come across as experts.  The fact that they have an MBBS degree does not entitle them to become experts. They have to demonstrate their expertise and explain through simple language.  Years ago, I had visited this paediatrician in Jayanagar for a cold when my elder one was about a year and a half old. He started asking about vaccines and my wife tried to deflect the questions, but he persisted. He ended up telling me that I was an irresponsible father since I had not vaccinated my son with the HepB vaccine. I soon proceeded to counter him, explaining how the disease has been explained from the time of Vedas, and if the disease was so easily spread, humanity would have reduced drastically in numbers. One thing led to another and the discussion went on for more than an hour , eventually  the detente happened by mutual separation.  I learnt recently that his fully vaccinated child had become Autistic.  Lack of hostile intent does not absolve Doctors of their duty. When they advise they need to back it up with knowledge.

Babu : When I see that my father has been vaccinated , and my grandfather has been vaccinated , and they are okay , I find it difficult to belive that vaccines could be causing so many issues. And I have been vaccinated as well.

Chiddu : Remember , when you say your father was vaccinated, we are talking about one or two vaccines. Now there is a huge bucket list, and the Doctors keep advocating every vaccine available. Take a look at the health of children today. Think of each vaccine as equivalent of smoking 10 cigarettes at once. One vaccine, you may not notice an issue. Make it two, it increases. When you talk about 50-60 vaccines given these days, the harm caused is obvious. Especially when you compare the health of vaccinated with the unvaccinated children. Alternately think of the vaccination procedure as equivalent of doing a bypass surgery. Yes , there may be situations where you might want to vacciante someone, but each vaccine decision should be weighed as carefully as you would analyze the decision to do a bypass surgery. The procedure carries definite risks and it is foolhardy to subject perfectly healthy kids to a medical procedure that has the probability , however small, of causing serious illness and death.

Farhan : I have my own business and have been associated with pharma for a while. We know the dangers of most drugs but still use them because we are used to the convenience. I get a headache, I know the side effects of the pain reliever because it is so convenient. Also, since every body around us is using it , it becomes acceptable and normal.
Farhan : There was this incident in mallya hospital. A child died but the parents were not notified. After extracting 2 lakhs , they were asked for more money to release the body. we had to get to a local organization Kannada Rakshana Vedike and use their help to get the hospital to return the money. Medicine has become an extremely corrupt profession.

Chiddu : See you have to understand that in many of these corporate hospitals, the choice that can be exercised by the Doctors is limited. Especially in the case of vaccines where there is a directive from pretty much everywhere to vaccinate more and more. And parents also don’t question vaccines. And increasingly I see a new trend. Most people who graduate as Doctors these days directly land up a job at a big corporate hospital like Appolo. Earlier they used to get a degree and struggle for a few years before establishing themselves. Now you take a huge loan and grduate to become a peadiatrician. You will take another 2-3 years to repay the loan. Your job will be very important to you. So it is easy for you to look the other way when you see a vaccine injury or death.

Farhan : Do you know how much it costs to get a medical degree. Ramaiah Hospital , it costs XXX lakhs, AVC hospital YYY lakhs — (don’t remember the list of hospitals but he described numbers in various hospitals to study) And they charge foreign students in dollars , which is even more profitable to the school.
Nidhi : Do we need to consent to our children to get the MR vaccine. I had already vaccinated my children twice with MMR. I feel this drive is not necessary.

Chiddu : No vaccine is necessary.

Nidhi : Should we give consent?

Chiddu : That is entirely upto you. However, if I were you, I definitely would not be giving consent.

Farhan :  These vaccine drives are a lot more effective in terms of ROI for the vaccine companies. You cannot advertise vaccines on TV in India, so they have to reach out to Doctors and pharmacies through their sales channels. However, if they manage to convince the Government into an awareness and vaccination drive (and they have been known to give money to the right people to enable this), then they reach out to a lot of people at minimum cost. Its a much more effective sales driver.

Parent_D : No vaccine is necessary. My elder son is 4 years old and reacted to his vaccine(s). He has constant night terrors since the time of vaccination, and for the past 4 years we have not had a good night’s sleep becauuse of this. Daughter is completey vaccine free and sleeps blissfully every night. If there is one thing I regret , it is not learning about vaccines before my 1st son was born.

Parent_G : I would recommend Homeopathic detox if your child is injured by vaccines. Once we realized that our son was injured by vaccines, we tried homeo detox and it worked very well for us. With homeo detox , switching to an organic diet and using solely A2 milk, my son has recovered.

Swathi : I keep telling my patients not to vaccinate, but the rot is really deep. Most people keep hearing the message that vaccines are important. I convinced 2 couples to protect their children from vaccines,but they ended up vaccinating the kid anyway.

Shailesh : If you simply look at history, we hardly have any mortality among children these days, and I would attribute it to vaccines. For example, my father had one sibling that did not survive, and my grandparents had 1 or 2 siblings that did not survive.

Chiddu : I think you should see the video that I had shown at the start of this session.

Reba : You have to look at what else has changed over the years. We can see that antibiotics have made some difference but please look at the overall quality of life. We seem to be borrowing from the American paradigm that has shown to be a complete failure. You get a period of apparent well being , and then things start going completely downhill. We are seeing this in the US. We are already seeing it tanking in the US, and since we followwing closely , we will also end up doing the same. Autism rates are expected to go to 1 in 2 children by 2025. We are also seeing the same thing.

Parent_G : We see so many children with special needs today. Elita I am sure there are at least 3-4 children in every block with Autism (Each block typicall has 76 to 115 houses). Most of these children need therapy, and the people who give these therapies, their business is roaring. Therey are not able to cater to all the children with special needs.
We are repeatedly told that the vaccines result in a much milder version of the disease. That is exactly the opposite of what I have seen. I know a case of Measles where the child was already vaccinated multiple times with the MMR. He recovered from Measles but the child has multiple scars all over his body from the Measles infection. When kids who have not been vaccianted get the measles, it is normally very mild. We have seen so many cases of the Measles but no persistent rashes after the measles.

Chiddu : I know a kid that has got rashes after ChickenPox but he got it at a very young age. I don’t know about his vaccination status, but hsis parents at least then were vaccine believers

Parent_G : Most people don’t like it when the Doctor does not prescribe medicines. There is this Doctor nearby who does not prescribe any medication when the children are sick. Parents don’t like this, even though they push the Doctor for medications , he refuses. I don’t know his views on vaccines, but when we say no to vaccines, he does not argue.

Parent_D : It is that same Doctor who saw the girl last year. He gave her catch up doses of multiple vaccines. She died within a day of the vaccine. She was three and a half years old.

Chiddu : The same girl we discussed a few months back.

Parent_D : Yes, the same girl. And on that note, when we keep hearing that vaccines do not cause autism, there is this set of twins from Gardenia. A Doctor accidentally vaccinated one of the kids twice on the same day. Before he could vaccinate the correct kid, the parents got alarmed and called off the visit. The double vaccinated kid is severely autistic now. The other kid is fine.

Parent_D : There are so many Autistic kids in Gardenia.It is heartbreaking that parents blindly believe their Doctors and vaccinate their children.

Shailesh : For this MR drive , I have already consented. I came here because my wife wanted me to talk to you people before vaccinating. After listening to you folks, I definitely feel I should rescind the decision and say ‘No’ but I can’t help but think that my parents’ generation and the previous one had childhood mortalities. 100% of children didn’t surive to adulthood , and I think we have to thank vaccines for that. One person I know contracted Polio when he was a kid. He was not vaccinated and his father regrets that he did not vaccinate him.

Swathi : Its quite possible that the child was vaccinated and the father did not know about it.

Shailesh : Hmm…..

Chiddu : As I said, you need to see the short video that I opened this meeting with. Vaccines have been given undue credit for reducing the child mortality rate. Our understanding of our bodies have improved. We no longer have kids dying of rickets. We no longer have kids dying from beriberi. We understand vitamin deficiency. Our knowledge of nutrition and hygiene has improved. More importantly the availability of nutrition has improved. The largest epidemics of smallpox were among the fully vaccinated , whereas unvaccinated escaped without the disease in the midst of the epidemics. Going a bit further back, most of these epidemics started burgeoning after people started crowding in dense urban clusters. I can’t counter you when you say someone you know , not vaccinated got paralyzed by Polio. But look at overall numbers. 1 out of 50000 get paralyzed if they don’t get vaccinated. When they are heavily vaccinated, that number comes down to 1 in 10000 or less. So clearly you are exacerbating the problem and refusing to acknowledge it by not measuring the outcomes.

Reba : You have to understand that about the basic nature of immunity, and an informed choice to take one of the valid, effective and effective routes – aka natural immunity – immunity acquired from vaccines is not the only way to ensure a good, healthy immune system – science also acknowledges this does it not? That natural immunity is a real thing? Some of us who have chosen the natural way of living, and for me I had a life transforming experience from giving a lotus birth to ensuring that my child is vaccine free. For the odd occasion that she does fall ill, homeopathic remedies work very well in healing the body. Avoiding vaccines is only one part of staying healthy. You need to live stress free, and you need to be on a healthy diet.

[ We concluded more or less on this note, and all the participants exchanged numbers and parted for smaller group discussions ]



Questions on The MR vaccine drive in India

What is the drive about?
Its part of an WHO campaign to eradicate Measles and Rubella worldwide. The stated goal is to render India Measles and Rubella free by 2020. As part of the drive, they are launching a campaign to give the vaccine to all children throughout India, and over the next two years will introduce it into the UIP (Universal Immunization Program — which is the Govt recommended and sponsored vaccination routine in India). As part of the drive they are targetting all  children in Goa, Karnataka, Tamil Nadu and Pondicherry , in phase I , from Feb 7th to Feb 25th 2017

How dangerous are the diseases?
As dangerous as  eating rice or cereal. As a child growing up in 1970’s India I remember kids getting Measles and Mumps. Rubella incidentally was never a serious childhood threat, ever.  Measles did kill a lot of kids at the early part of the 20th century. But it ceased to be a threat long before vaccines were introduced (in 1964)

What is the risk of your child dying or getting a lifetime disability from Rubella?
Zilch. Zero. Nada.  शून्य ,பூஜ்யம்,  ಸೊನ್ನೆ

Does the vaccine offer lifetime protection against Rubella and Measles?
The official marketing drivel is that yes, it does. But the reality is that these vaccines are constantly given as boosters, and when they are marketed as boosters, the logic given is that the immunity wanes over time.   But in reality there is no guarantee that you will not get either of the diseases shortly after the vaccine. It is a live virus vaccine containing live strains of both Measles and Rubella. Variants of this vaccine have caused Measles and Rubella infections in the past. There is a one month window, within which if you come down with Rubella or Measles, you should definitely look at the vaccine as the cause. Not only does the vaccine not offer any realistic protection, they can actually cause the diseases, or worse.

Officially , who is at risk with Rubella?
Pregnant women, in their 1st trimester of pregnancy. That is it.

Do deaths from Measles occur?
Yes they do. Measles can be a deadly disease in the malnourished. Most deaths and complications from Measles are  poorly nourished children. These kids are as likely to die from the vaccine as from the measles, or from tuberculosis. What kills them is lack of nutrition, not Measles.

Can the vaccine cause Measles and/or Rubella?
Yes they can, and do. This is a live virus vaccine, containing strains of both Measles and Rubella.  The fact that media and the Govt and the vaccine manufacturers don’t talk about it does not mean the vaccine would start behaving differently. There have been measles outbreaks that have been traced to the strain of measles virus used in the vaccine. Getting infected with Rubella after the vaccine is also a very realistic scenario.

Points to Ponder.

  • Rubella is a contagious, generally mild viral infection that occurs most often in children and young adults.
  • Its sometimes called the 3-day measles , most people don’t even realize they are sick, the disease is *that* mild.
  • The only people who are really in danger are pregnant women. If pregnant women catch Rubella in the 1st 3 months of pregnancy, then they have an increased chance of delivering a child with CRS, a birth defect.

Also — What is the likelihood that a 9 month old baby girl will become pregnant? Impossible for boys either 9 month or 15 years to become pregnant. In short, they are targetting this vaccine on kids only because they can. There is simply no logical sense in making kids take this vaccine, assuming that the vaccine actually works.

What is the risk of this vaccine? — No one knows, really. This is a new combination so we will only know if we actually monitor every child that is getting the vaccine for a substantial period, say 6 months. Right now, the marketing campaign is trained to encourage uptake of the vaccine, not look at the effects of it. Any side effect will be pushed to the ‘coincidence’ category .